Response to: Jesus, Hades and Mythology

 

This is a response to the conclusions made Jeremy Lile in his post: Jesus, Hades & Mythology: with an Addendum Concerning Eternal Conscious Torment and Preterism. (Article was also recently posted as a comment under Jesus, Hades and Mythology)

In a way this an article in defense of the conclusions and article by Ed Stevens on the “conscious eternal” afterlife of the just and unjust. First of all, I am a old friend and acquaintance of Ed Stevens. After moving to Brazil with my family, I lost my constant contact with him as I had previously held. I also began to differ with him in the “minor’s” such as his “Literal Rapture” of the 1st century saints viewpoint. He will always however remain a friend close at heart regardless of our physical distance and minor differences. This time I am writing in his defense in sorts at the same time a rebuttal to the article posted by Jeremy Lile as titled above. It will be a brief account staking out the biblical position regarding eternal conscious punishment of the reprobate and it’s corresponding subject of “Hell” and it’s biblical and extra-biblical citations.

To proceed, my first response after reading this article by Jeremy was, good article with depth of research and timeliness of the subject matter. In afterthought though, it falls short of the bottom of the subject. I will first start out by stating that I have posted on this wrote on the subject of the inner earth to many Preterists without response. After thinking over the reasons why I was given virtually no response I was left clueless. The best excuse was made by one well known Preterist writer and contributor to this site, “well I haven’t thought of that”. Well, it’s time Preterists deal seriously with what really is in the inner earth and about the subject of hell. As Preterist Christians it will only aid in our consistency when being addressed by futurists we witness to.

Some important topical definitions:

Hell - The English word for the final place of punishment for the reprobate.

Tartarus - Greek meaning the Abyss, Deep place. The place of eternal punishment for fallen angels and reprobate souls.

Hades - Greek meaning the Unseen realm. Pre- A.D. 70 two receptacles:

1. Abraham’s bosom - resting place of departed righteous awaiting the anastasis (rising) in A.D. 70.
2. Place of torment – place where reprobate awaited judgment of A.D. 70.

Sheol - *Two words used in most English trans. in O.T. for Sheol:

1. Hebrew equivalent of Gk, (Hades)
2. Hebrew equivalent of Gk. (Grave) i.e. Topos

Abrahams’ bosom - Hebrew common phrase resting place of righteous departed prior to A.D. 70.

I will begin my rebuttal of the conclusions by Jeremy’s posting with the following:

Eph. 4:9-10 is an excellent place to begin. Jeremy quotes this verse, yet does not explain neither elaborate just where Jesus was during his three days and three nights in the “kardia” heart of the earth. Was Jesus conscious there? What did He do there? Just where are the lower parts of the earth? Did it have different compartments? The following verses will help us answer these questions.

1 Pet. 3:18-20, Were the spirits of verse 19 “dis-enbodied” there or em-bodied? Who did he preach to unconscious dis-embodied spirits? Was this verse referring this the earthly ministry or Jesus’ ministry to a department of Sheol. Yes, I will also show Sheol had departments shortly as well. This verse follows verse 18 which had just stated that Jesus was quickened after death by the Spirit; By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison. These two verses are a continuation thought of Peter’s showing Jesus went during the three days and three nights and preached to the captive souls in Sheol/Hades or Abraham’s bosom.

Where was this Hades of the Greeks or Sheol to the Hebrews? Three key verses can help.

Math. 12:40
‘..so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the “kardia” Gk. heart of the earth’.
- Is not the heart our deepest part physically. So in this case, Jesus went into the deepest part of the earth. i.e. “not just the crust” or the so–called mantle if you believe what the scientists are telling the truth about what’s under our feet but, the actual center of the earth. More on the implications of this later.

Luke. 23:43
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily, I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise”.
Jeremy in his article addresses a reply on this verse, but still seems unsure on this one. Where was this paradise? Where there people there? Is this not Abraham’s bosom being mentioned? If so, where are the reprobate pre-A.D. 70 people? We shall see so in due time.

Phil. 2:10 Gives the answer where.
‘that every knee should bow in heaven, in earth and under the earth’
- The Gk. word for earth “katachthonios” is used only one time in the entire N.T. meaning not under the earth, but literally, in the sub-terranean realms or heart “middle” of the earth.

please review also: 1 Sam. 28, on the account of Saul the woman of Endor and Samuel.

Luke. 16 Parable of Lazarus & the Rich man (not a parable in reality).

The so-called Parable of Lazarus & the Rich Man has been quoted by many futurists denying the truths in story Jesus makes. Does the fact Jesus illustrated different departments of Hades or Sheol in this story prove He borrowed Greek terminology, or did not have literal truths behind the symbols? Absolutely not.

Jesus did not have to borrow the Greek words or concepts due to being present in a Hellenistic culture contrary to the positions of Jeremy in his post. He was a Israelite was addressing the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He used the word Hades to describe Abraham’s bosom more clearly for all his audience. He used Gehenna to address the future of eternal conscious punishment for the reprobate, not necessarily using this term because the fact that trash burned up there and disappears. The important issue he was illustrating in this term was the fact that the fires and the trash burned there continually in the ‘Valley of Hinnom’. Gehenna was therefore, a parabolic term for future eternal conscious punishment of the wicked.

Now the “Townley Error” as I’ll term it for lack of a better term. I will define it as such: It says, that since all was accomplished in A.D. 70 regarding future punishment then, eternal punishment has ceased due to it’s covenantal application limitation. This error falls short of the universal application of what God had in scope in the A.D. 70 regeneration and what was accomplished as stressed in recent articles by Kurt Simmons. Robert Townley wrote a excellent book in 1845 as the first full Preterist book, but he later fell in error over this unbiblical position. Often such error is caused by not going to the bottom of a subject which is what happened in his views concerning this area of eschatology.

Since Jeremy was willing to bring up the Book of Enoch in his post, I will expand on it’s relevance to our subject and some more about the books origins and why it ultimately was left out of the Biblical canon of the Western world. To the ancient Abyssinian Church uninfluenced by the east or west, the book remained canonical since apostolic times.

According to sources, the Book of Enoch was rediscovered by James Bruce in 1773 in present day Ethiopia and was more or less left untranslated until Richard Laurence made his translations into English 1821, the last being the 1838 (3rd edition) from the Bodleian manuscript being one of the three brought back by Bruce from Ethiopia. Richard Laurence when translating the Book of Enoch deemed it to be of recent extra-biblical origins or pseudopigraphical. This was due to his opinion of the book not being the actually the words or written by the ante-diluvian patriarch Enoch. His view now maintained in the West, was that it was of “later Jewish origins” not authored before 200 B.C. The reasons being that the prophecies in Enoch contained reference to Herod and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 being the time of final judgment. The true author in his view, then had to live in a time after or slightly before it’s later prophecies. This is typical higher criticism which was fashionable at the time. I would ask, where’s the inspiration factor Mr. Laurence!! The world must be grateful to antiquarians like Richard Laurence for their work, but to take their opinions as final decisions on the validity and originality of a text or subject can be a big mistake.

The facts are the Book of Enoch was purposely deleted out of the Hebrew canon in A.D. 90 by the reconvened Sanhedrin Council of Yavne called by Yohannan ben Zakkai and Simon ben Gamaliel II due to it’s references to the Son of Man, the Elect One and the Messiah as Enoch describes Jesus Christ whom their immediate elders had crucified. This means that with certainty the Pella community of Christians would have upheld Enoch's canonicity led by Simon and his faithful band of followers which had left Jerusalem most likely in A.D. 66 after Cestius Gallus had left off his own siege of Jerusalem. Christians later quoted and upheld the Book of Enoch’s authority if not it’s canonicity.

Among the early Christians, Tertullian circa A.D. 200 is quoted from a work as bluntly stating that the “Jews have taken the Book of Enoch out of Hebrew canon due to it’s prophecies concerning Christ”. Later opposition among some Christians led by Jerome and Hilary influenced others at the Council of Laodicea A.D. 364 to once and for all dispose of the spurious Book of Enoch. Possibly, in addition to following the Rabbis advice and cover up, they felt threatened as futurists by Enoch’s 70 generation limitation of the final judgment being A.D. 70!

I am not writing to prove the canonicity of Enoch that’s another subject, but it has to be reviewed carefully in light of it’s contents regarding the Hebraic concept of Sheol or Hades. I will show from the Book of Enoch quoted by Jude, that there is eternal conscious punishment for the unjust as well as having different receptacles of both the just and unjust prior to A.D. 70.

I now quote Richard Laurence translation of: Enoch chapter 22 in full:

“1. From there I proceeded to another spot, where I saw on the west a great and lofty mountain, a strong rock, and four delightful places.
2. Internally it was deep, capacious, and very smooth; as smooth as if it had been rolled over: it was both deep and dark to behold.
3. Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered and said, These are the delightful places where the spirits, the souls of the dead, will be collected; for them were they formed; and here will be collected all the souls of the sons of men.
4. These places, in which they dwell, shall they occupy until the day of judgment, and until their appointed period.
5. Their appointed period will be long, even until the great judgment. And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead; and their voices reached to heaven, while they were accusing.
6. Then I inquired of Raphael, an angel who was with me, and said, Whose spirit is that, the voice of which reaches to heaven, and accuses?
7. He answered, saying, This is the spirit of Abel who was slain by Cain his brother; and who will accuse that brother, until his seed be destroyed from the face of the earth;
8. Until his seed perish from the seed of the human race.
9. At that time therefore I inquired respecting him, and respecting the general judgment, saying, Why is one separated from another? He answered, Three separations have been made between the spirits of the dead, and thus have the spirits of the righteous been separated.
10. Namely, by a chasm, by water, and by light above it.
11. And in the same way likewise are sinners separated when they die, and are buried in the earth; judgment not overtaking them in their lifetime.
12. Here their souls are separated. Moreover, abundant is their suffering until the time of the great judgment, the castigation, and the torment of those who eternally execrate, whose souls are punished and bound there for ever.
13. And thus has it been from the beginning of the world. Thus has there existed a separation between the souls of those who utter complaints, and of those who watch for their destruction, to slaughter them in the day of sinners.
14. A receptacle of this sort has been formed for the souls of unrighteous men, and of sinners; of those who have completed crime, and associated with the impious, whom they resemble. Their souls shall not be annihilated in the day of judgment, neither shall they arise from this place. Then I blessed God,
15. And said, Blessed by my Lord, the Lord of glory and of righteousness, who reigns over all for ever and for ever.

This passage from Enoch shows clearly the following points:

1. All embodied souls went to Sheol/Hades prior to A.D. 70. (not the grave either)!

2. There were separate compartments in Sheol/Hades prior to A.D. 70.

3. They were conscious there and had remembrance. 4. Post-A.D. 70, the impious unjust remain there conscious with eternal punishment and are not anniallated or raised from there.

5. The just were raised A.D. 70 from their compartment i.e. Lazarus bosom, or Paradise into Heaven itself.

Josephus’ Discourse to Greeks on Hades proves interesting for further proof as follows in brief: "Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, where the light of this world does not shine . . . This region is allowed as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them. . . .the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light. . . with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold,. . . while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand, by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good will. . . Now those angels that are set over these souls, drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a nearer view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby. . . even hereby are they punished; for a chasm deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them, cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it." (Josephus Complete Works, trans. by William Whiston, p.637).

Sounds strikingly similar to Enoch to me. The mythological view of Luke. 16 on Lazarus & the Rich man is neo-Sadduceeism where the man Lazarus and the rich man are seen as a myths borrowed from the Hellenistic culture to tell a moral lesson. Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witness and Mormons all fall into this old error.

Some would now ask so where is Satan or the fallen angels? Do they have conscious eternal punishment post-A.D. 70? Good question. Refer first to I Pet. 2:4 and Jude 6. The N.T. through the Book of Revelation states that at A.D. 70 the reprobate are thrown into Gehenna. Does Gehenna imply destruction of body or of their power he had previously held. The Greek word for destroy has several meanings and the one used for the devil in Revelation is to destroy. This does not mean Satan and his devils are destroyed or burned up physically in hell, Tartarus, or Gehenna. What of Tartarus then or Gehenna? Allow me to turn to Enoch again.

Enoch chapter 21: 4-6 on Tartarus: *notice differences from Abraham’s bosom, Hades.

“4. From there I afterwards passed on to another terrific place;
5. Where I beheld the operation of a great fire blazing and glittering, in the midst of which there was a division. Columns of fire struggled together to the end of the abyss, and deep was their descent. But neither its measurement nor magnitude was I able to discover; neither could I perceive its origin. Then I exclaimed, How terrible is this place, and how difficult to explore!
6. Uriel, one of the holy angels who was with me, answered and said: Enoch, why are you alarmed and amazed at this terrific place, at the sight of this place of suffering? This, he said, is the prison of the angels; and here they are kept for ever.

Obviously, Tartarus or Gehenna, would be the fallen angels last estate deemed forever. Gehenna the ‘fiery pit’ is quite close in description in Greek mythology and the Bible to ‘Tartarus’. In reality they are one in the same. One term stressing the abyss or depth of it. The other the fire and eternalness of the place.

Observations on Tartarus:

1. Equivalent to Gehenna. i.e. the fiery pit outside historic Jerusalem. i.e. the Valley of Hinnom.
2. Eternal place of punishment for Satan and the fallen angels.
3. Both seen as a deep pit and as a fiery.
4. Lower & deeper than Hades.
5. Horrible place of eternal punishment.

Comparison between Hades & Gehenna, or Tartarus:

1. Hades was also known in Christ’s day as Abraham’s bosom to the Hebrews.

2. Hades had two receptacles pre-A.D. 70:

a. The place of the reprobate awaiting A.D. 70 judgment.
b. Paradise, or Abraham’s bosom.

3. Tartarus is the eternal ‘the pit or abyss’ is the Greek equivalent of Gehenna.

4. Gehenna is not made of fire which burns the fallen angels up, or the reprobate souls.

5. In A.D. 70, Christ opened the prison doors for the righteous in Abraham’s bosom therefore, emptying this region and taking captivity captive.

6. Hell is real. Satan and the reprobate are there since A.D. 70.

It is clear with the biblical and “extra-biblical” sources we have that Hades was the Greek concept of Abraham’s bosom. That souls or men were conscious there up until Jesus came and unlocked the prison in A.D. 70 and set the captives free. As for the reprobate unjust, well, they got to stay until they got thrown into the Tartarus or Gehenna.

Hades had compartments, that is Abraham’s bosom and the place of punishment. Nothing indicates they were unconscious there, quite the contrary. To say or imply that Jesus borrowed Hellenistic usages that were unreal and were mere myths strikes at the heart of the gospel. I urge all to carefully reread the passages in the O.T. referring to Sheol with a concordance. You will find the grave mentioned where one has no remembrance or other faculties. Of course not! Our physical remains have no faculties remaining. On the other hand we do as “we” continue on beyond the grave. Sheol was a conscious, real place with departments for the good and bad. Please also read the Book of Enoch and Josephus discourse on Hades for yourselves.

Even though Tartarus i.e. “Hell” was symbolized by Jesus’ valley of Hinnom or Gehenna, this does not preclude it’s eternalness, or that the souls there were not there and not conscious. The reprobate and fallen angels are there now being in conscious torment forever. The evidence biblical & extra-biblical evidence shows that “Hell” is real and abiding. The Dispensationalist futurists we all know may not have the timing of the ‘parousia’ correct and may be inconsistent in how they define hell, but they believe it. They are right on that at least. We should practice as recommended by our brother and fellow Preterist John Bray frequently put on the back of his little tracts, “Dig deeper”. Praise God, I am thankful for what He has shown. I pray all of you readers feel the same. I pray Jeremy "dig deeper" likewise. Thank you for your article to jar this one loose.

We now have New Jerusalem the Holy instead of facing waiting for salvation from Hades. We are free from the prison now. If we are in Christ no one can snatch us out of His hands. He chose you and predestined you to salvation since before the world began and died for you that we may have eternal life. Why not follow Christ and preach His glorious Kingdom?

For Christ & Kingdom,

Paul Anderson
Planalmira, Brazil  

 

  as of 5-2007